[00:00:02.270] - Benjamin

Jessie, thank you so much for joining us today.

[00:00:05.400] - Jesse

Hey, man, it's good to be here.

[00:00:08.850] - Benjamin

Your book is very much a story of place as much as it is people. Austin, Texas, for better or worse, nowadays, is a national city. The branding, the tech sector, the breakfast tacos. Everybody knows Austin. But take us back to Austin in the decades before. South by. You grew up there, didn't you?

[00:00:48.720] - Jesse

Yeah. I grew up in a small town nearby. So Austin was like I was like in Austin's orbit my whole life till I moved here. After I quit College, I went to College in San Marcus, which is just down the road 30 miles so you could make it there. You could get really loaded in Austin and make it back if you were lucky anyway. So it was always the center of my universe. I've lived here ever since, except for seven years in Los Angeles. And in Los Angeles, there was a big population of ex Austinites who stuck together.

The thing about Austin in the 60s is that it was still kind of a small town. It was state capital and home of the University. And that gave it a sense of stability without big industry or anything. And University being situated here are a lot of intellectuals and kind of quirky Bohemian academics. There was a large population of speedlunkers, for example. And those were the guys who would go across the border and bring back bushels of coyote. Even in the 50s, there are lots of beatenicks, smoking pot and stuff.

There's this Bohemian community here. It speaks to the sort of intellectual side of Austin. But there's also always a split personality here from the very beginning because it was founded by the vice President of the Republic of Texas, who was a bad poet who ended up here on a Buffalo Hunt and supposedly after he shot a Buffalo. But I think it was probably taking a leak on a Hill and admired the surrounding environment and said, this should be the future seat of Empire. And so the following year became the capital of the Republic.

But it was really a bad place. There was no reason to start something here. It was deep in Indian country. It was just a whimsy this guy had. And so even when you lived here, you had to live with the likelihood that in the middle of the night, your livestock and your children would be swept away by Comanche Raiders. And so it's always had that wild side to it. And then on the other side, sort of dreamy creative side. In the 60s, Austin was not a very important place Besides being the state capital, but had this wealth of federal money in addition to state money, thanks to Lyndon Johnson being part of the right hand of the New Deal.

And so the seeds of the high tech culture were planted and the river had been developed flood control the river being another symbolic side of the wild side of Austin nature. And once that was corral, people started settling in the Hills and became a center for recreation on the Lakes and everything. So like, you had the sort of intellectual side here in Austin, but also the Cedar choppers who lived right on the edge of town in the Hills. And some of these guys were associated with what we call the Overton gang.

[00:05:47.830] - Benjamin

Let me ask you with this sort of schizophrenic, split personality that you're describing to Austin wild, Bohemian carefree. There are also very real dividing lines of race and class in your history, lines that are actually very pertinent to the story that you tell. Can you give us a sense of the human geography of Austin at this time and why that matters for your story?

[00:06:19.430] - Jesse

Yeah. The other thing about Austin is that the downtown part of it like what white people considered important, the capital and the banks and everything. The very concentrated area set off by natural boundaries. The river and two creeks formed this gridiron that they laid the city out on originally. And just south of the river. The south side of the river used to flood all the time. So development down there was sparse. And so naturally, that's where you ended up having speakeasies and tourist car, motels and bars and stuff that if they flooded out well, so what they could rebuild or whatever.

And then starting really, just after World War Two, they started solidifying the East West divide with the Interstate 35. And it just like a concrete curtain cut off the east side of town, which happened to be neighborhoods that had been proscribed for Hispanics and African Americans, because when they would settle on the west side of town, they'd find that they couldn't get utilities hooked up to their houses and stuff like that. It was in the city charter in the 20s that the east side is where the minorities live.

And so, for better and worse, the Blacks and Hispanics developed their own communities over there. And some of that was a very rich cultural life. But it was also a racist system. So this is where the Overton family lived. And other people who so many of them were physically big, strong guys who, like in sports. They were the linemen. They were never the running bags. And they were the guys who fought in Golden Gloves. And they were also the guys who oftentimes got in trouble and sent off to prison.

So it was not uncommon for your next door neighbor to have done a term from in Huntsville and end up driving a gravel truck or something like that. There was some resentment there.

[00:09:10.270] - Benjamin

Let's jump right in with the overtones. They are the main subject of your book and of the major players in the gang. You focus on Tim. Of course, Tim Overton. You have Jerry Ray James or Fat Jerry. You have Lucky Brown, Freddie Hedges, Hank Valon. You have a couple of other Overtons, such as Tim's father, Snooks and his brother Charles. But the central figure is Tim. Where did he come from? And how did he end up running a criminal outfit?

[00:09:52.870] - Jesse

Tim was born in 1940. So that puts him not quite a baby Boomer. A pre baby Boomer, I guess. And he was always a prominent athlete, starting in Little League, Pony League basketball, baseball. You can look up the newspaper clippings and his name is always mentioned. And his friends all talked about what a great athlete he was. He was also smart. And so that set him apart from a lot of the guys who are involved in this kind of life. And he had a doting mother. And she had married his father.

I think they got together when she was 13, possibly 14. That wasn't that unusual. Back then. She and his father were both part of the influx of kind of grapes of wrath movement from West Texas, where the farms all got peeled off during the dust storms. And so there was that element in the community on the east side. And there were five brothers. Tim was the second oldest, and so he was a really good athlete. He was part of the 1958 graduating class that almost won the Championship for Austin High.

They were predicted to have to win it. There was a lot of energy behind them, and it was a huge they were flown to their games during the finals in the Braniff airline to put a little more imagery on the period. And they lost during the what was it, quarter final semifinal or something like that. And it was huge disappointment. They said that all the guys cried on the way back, but still several of them got scholarships to play for UT and University of Texas. That was the golden ring here.

Most of those guys wouldn't even consider going to another College. In fact, it was like, I say, Austin being like a small town. Even on the east side, you could see the Capitol Dome and the UT tower. It was like beacon. That's where I'm going. That's the thing. Football is God here, right? And the famed coach, Darryl Royle, who was not all that famous yet, except as an incredible College athlete from Oklahoma, had taken over the team, and the organization was rebuilding them from the ground up, literally the ground up, replacing the turf on the football field.

There was a huge amount of energy going on into that. His freshman year, he played on the freshman team, which you had to do. But the second year, he was part of the starting roster, and he actually played the cotton ball, which is a big deal cotton ball classic. And he got the watch that the Gold Hamilton watch with his name engraved on the back. But he was out of school. He left school. I just learned this, actually, after the football season,

It didn't register for the spring semester and instead worked on the Western pipeline, which was something guys did back then. But he was passing when he left school. So to me, that suggests they had already gotten in trouble. And it was hushed up typically when football players got in trouble in Austin. But it was fixed, right? And so that was part of the unrecorded story that I was told by many people. I take it as fact now. So later that year, he kept getting in trouble.

And the worst things he got in trouble for were forgery. He was involved in a scam where they would burblarize businesses and take their check writing machines, which was in those days a big deal. They didn't have computers and stuff. They wrote payroll checks on a machine and send out guys with checks, not just in town. I also just learned this. It was statewide deal. They stole check writing machines in Austin, San Antonio, Dallas and Houston and sent guys out with checks in all these towns.

When they were busted, one of the guys was in Houston or San Antonio was 40 checks. So you multiply that by three or four guys going out, you might end up with a considerable amount of money. And so the first time he pled guilty and was given a suspended sentence and then a couple of months later, it was busted for the very same thing. So a forgery doesn't sound like that big of a deal now, but it was a huge deal then, and it was a major crime problem.

And forgers and small time safe crackers were the hackers of the 60s, and it was just a Huntsville. He served less than a year and got out. And in 1961, he was in Austin. One thing that he and his brothers were involved in were gambling. They were card fixers when the professional gamblers that I've spoken to said that when these guys sat down in the game, the best thing was to fold because you weren't going to win. They would take all your money. They had all kinds of magic that they would start doing and they get all your money.

[00:18:46.150] - Benjamin

Let me ask you, Jessie, this is such an interesting question about Tim because he had a working class upbringing. His family was always on the move. They had address after address. They were just relocating around town all the time. He didn't have a great dad, pretty abusive his mother. She kind of held things together as best she could. But she died when he was pretty young. He had an older brother who was pretty much a career felon from the jump. Tim had some pretty terrible odds as far as his lot in life when he was a young man.

But he also had this potentially very bright future ahead of him as a football star at UT of all places. Right?

[00:19:38.680] - Jesse

Yeah.

[00:19:39.440] - Benjamin

So how do you explain those choices he made to go off the rails to go to the dark side?

[00:19:50.040] - Jesse

Something traumatic. Things were going on in that family, and I've never quite zeroed in on what it might have been. But you mentioned some of the factors that seem obvious and the fact that his mother had died of a brain tumor his senior year. And it's like if you were writing a movie to push all these buttons, all these developments would be written up the way that they were. She died the weekend that he went back to school his senior year to miss his first regular football game.

He had just turned 17, all this weird stuff. And then a couple of months later, his father marries this wild woman named Florin, and apparently they may have been having an affair during the marriage. It seems pretty likely. And she was just a wild, weird woman. Her previous husband was Snook's head mechanic and Melvin Birch, and she had married and divorced him several times. She had six children of her own, and after she married Snook, she divorced him at least twice and remarried him. There was a lot of drugs going on.

She really liked barbiturates, and whether she turned Snook on to them, I don't know. But there were a lot of barbiturates flowing in and out of the house,

I think several people said that his mother dying changed him a lot. And that was it. Maybe that was, I don't know. I think he was, like, a lot of kids doing a lot of delinquent stuff, breaking into places and doing pranks and stuff. And a lot of these guys just never grew up. High school was a lot of fun. They enjoyed the chaos, and they would be King in the Hill for beating up all comers. Just fights were a big deal. And then after they graduated, it was like, okay, what now?

And they just kept doing the same thing. Now Tim had that potential to grow up and go, okay, I'm done with that. But he and some people who were close to him, I blamed the coach for not getting him out of trouble those last couple of times. It seems kind of ridiculous on the face of it. But that's what they say. And so I think he had this twisted idea that Coach Royal had betrayed him and stood up for him like he promised. And so revenge was a big factor. And his motivations from then on.

[00:23:43.170] - Benjamin

So he turns his back on UT and links up with first his brother, from whom he learns quite a lot about the trade, so to speak. And we'll come to that in a second. But he begins to find some friends, some layabouts, some folks you can kind of team up with. And he really I'm trying not to exaggerate here, Jesse. He's kind of in and out of jail pretty consistently over the first part of the 1960s with these guys. But they always kind of get bailed out, right?

And then they come back and they've got this swagger to them. They've got this kind of style to them. And as the Overton gang really is forming in those early years, they are really into their style image is everything. They've got, the expensive clothes they've got the Cadillacs, they've got alligator shoes. Why was this so central to their identity?

[00:24:54.010] - Jesse

Well, I think part of it was the immediate era that they grew up in. These were guys who grew up when the Senate Crime Commission hearings were on town. So they were seeing all these Mafia characters on television. And those guys were a kind of superstar of the era. They emulated that. And that was a part of the zeitgeist, because when the newspapers covered the overturns and their friends, they would adopt some of the same vernacular that was being used to describe these big Mafia characters on the East Coast in Chicago.

But the boxer style was sharp clothes, Cadillac, and oftentimes a girlfriend who was also a hooker. So it was just part of the lifestyle and the chunky gold, jewelry and watches and stuff that was also bail money. You get in trouble, you got your bling right there to help buy your way out of it. Same with the cars. So that was all part of the style. And a rock and roll scene was happening.

They would hang out at the Blues club, and they dug that scene. So that was part of it.

[00:27:29.270] - Benjamin

Well, that helps to sort of give us a sense of the effect, the look that they are going for. But of course, they also have to pay for all of this.

[00:27:42.790] - Jesse

Right.

[00:27:43.970] - Benjamin

Let's talk about the bread and butter of the Overton gang. Tell us, Jesse, how to crack a safe open like an egg.

[00:27:55.110] - Jesse

Yeah. Well, first, getting into the banks in those days was pretty easy. They could Jimmy the back door lock or drill it out or just force it. Banks are just not small town banks. We're just not secure like they are now. And so they get inside and they start attacking the vault and the vault being the armored mall with a door that protected the money safe. And so they were to Peel that usually Peel that by going around the edges and just knocking out the rivets. And once you knock out a few rivets, you start prying the frame loose.

And pretty soon you're able to pull your way in. Maybe Jimmy the door. Or they would attack the lock. They would probably attack the lock on the vault first by knocking it off with knocking the head off with a chisel. And then they start working on the safe and use the same technology on the safe that they would use on the lot. Sometimes they might have found a lot combination. Or these guys stole locksmith, vans. And so they might have try out codes,

Ben

A manufacturer’s combination.

[00:29:57.530]

Right.

And so they try those first. If those didn't work, they start working on the knob. They knock the knob off, and with the knob off, you start to attack the knock a chisel in between the tumblers to get them out of the way. Or more likely, they might try grinding their way in so safes at that time, especially the square safes. They could attack the corners and start grinding away and uncover the layers of laminate metal. Because they weren't solid metal, they were laminated. So they would Peel away one layer, then Peel away another until they could get a hole in there and reach and grab the money out.

Or they might use a torch to burn their way in. And that could work. But on the small money save you ran the risk of burning up the money inside. So sometimes they would make a hole and use a water hose to run in there and cool the money down while they burn the hole in the side of the safe.

[00:31:27.770] - Benjamin

Now, these guys, they really know what they're doing. Their timing is good. The entry and the exit is based on fairly extensive case in the joint planning execution. They really became professionals and even ran what they called kind of a crime school for new guys who wanted to join up and learn the techniques.

[00:31:53.800] - Jesse

Yeah. The thing is, once they got into hitting banks, they got more discipline. They realized that. Okay, we need to cool it in Austin because they would go out in the beginning, they would go out and get in fights all the time. They would do stuff and end up in jail. They got disciplined enough to hit the road and do their crimes. They would drive up the interstates and the interstate's highway system was a big part of the story because it was fairly new. And suddenly you could drive hundreds of miles away to other cities and other States and with ease.

Right. And they were cool enough to organize these jobs and case them years ahead of time. So they had places they would go that they had case many times before and pull the job and go on to another town or they'd be back in town the next morning. So that's another interesting part of their dynamic, because on the one hand, they were crazy and out of control. And then, on the other hand, they were very organized and careful. One of the detectives that I interviewed the most said that they had an uncanny sense of when something was up, they would just drive up to the gig and just things didn't feel right.

And they would blow it off. And they had so many jobs planned that they could do that. That was what they did.

[00:33:48.590] - Benjamin

This is going on month after month in this time period, early Sixties. They're stringing these along almost week after week. They're busting these face. Did the local businesses? Did the banks in that sort of satellite perimeter around Austin? Did these business owners not wise up? Was there nothing they could do to protect themselves once it became known that, hey, fairly skilled, safe cracking gang was on the loose.

[00:34:29.870] - Jesse

One thing, and I don't know how much this was a reaction to them in particular, but these places would buy what we're called Cannonball Safes and Mossler made these. I don't know if other companies made them, but they were the best known by far, and they were just a large round safe with a special metal alloy. And so there's no flat surfaces for you to focus your drill on. And they were extremely hard and they really messed up the gang. They had actually very little luck getting into those, but they were only so big.

So the banks would store bags of coins and cash outside this money save. So once they got into the vault and they had no trouble getting into vaults, they run off with that. Now your big time, big time big city bank burgers. They don't mess with coins. But these guys did. They were like Sharks. They loved coins. They just kept on. The quantity of their activity overcame the lack of quality sometimes. And also they would break into the safe deposit boxes. And some of these small town banks.

Safe deposit box was basically a fishing tackle box with a little lock on it or something like that. So they would rifle through those and they would get all kinds of stuff jewelry, coin collections. They would score tens of thousands of dollars of loot sometimes that way. And probably some blackmail material, too.

[00:36:42.390] - Benjamin

Always handy.

[00:36:43.470] - Jesse

Yeah.

[00:36:47.230] - Benjamin

For every mouse in this game, there's a cat. And at the Austin Police Department, you had two cats with the sharpest claws in the business. Harvey Gann, Ernie Schol, combat vets. Gann had been a POW in the war. The toughest nails. How did they end up as narks?

[00:37:18.430] - Jesse

It's funny, I never really ask myself that about Harvey. Now Harvey was just a really hard nose Joe Friday kind of cop and very little sense of irony, too. He viewed the drug culture and the subculture as just enemies of the American way of life. And so he took his job very seriously. But on the other hand, he was the least honest of the two guys and forthcoming. I interviewed him many times. He was always holding something back. He would say, I got to protect my sources like, this is 50 years later.

And he said, I'm going to protect my he was just so guarded. Now the other character, Ernie Show, was a son of a Sheriff. He liked to say that he grew up in jail because his father was a Sheriff in Komal County, and they lived in an apartment at the jail. So he really admired his father. And he would tell stories about how his father did things that weren't strictly according to the books. To solve a problem, he said, We're problem solvers. And he really admired that.

And probably to a lesser extent, Harvey and all cops. But especially Ernie. He developed relationships with characters, I guess, partly because he worked under cover. Ernie was actually in the Department of Public Safety Narcotics Division, the state cop, and they had different sets of resources and lab and a big headquarters here to work with. And so he worked under cover a whole lot. And he stayed in touch with a lot of the old characters over the years. I think he had affinity with the criminal mind.

[00:39:51.790] - Benjamin

I got to say, Ernie really impressed me in your book. Jesse because his talents at undercover work are some of the best that I've ever read about. At one point, he was the motel clerk checking in the entire Overton gang for a crime conference that they were having out of town, sort of a crime business meeting. And he's the guy at the desk giving them their keys.

Yeah, he got there ahead of them. That was a crazy deal. Countless times that these guys would go out of town and hook up with the local connections and case of job, do some poker games. And I don't know what all but that trip, despite the lucky getting there ahead of time. They seated the area with other surveillance operations, and they had various contacts on stake out. And what happened? This was in Colorado. I forgot the town, but Tim's girlfriend had a miscarriage or something, and I needed a hospital care, and so they split down all of a sudden, and Tim took her to the hospital, and the other guys went separate ways.

And so it was all a big bust.

[00:41:34.270] - Benjamin

The women in this story play a pretty pivotal role. Married or not, each of the guys had numerous female associates over the years. You had Tim's longtime girlfriend, Judy Cathay, the well known Madam of Austin, Henry Valdez, and a good number of these women were required to work as prostitutes, as kind of a side gig or kind of the financing mechanism for the burglaries, the robberies, the bail money, the lawyer money and so forth.

It's kind of like a Merry goround, isn't it? The guys get busted for Jack and some merch. The women turn tricks to pay their bond or their legal fees. And to back around, we go. The next time Tim even pimped out his wife, sue for months. What I wanted to ask you, Jesse, this is a painful question, but I have to ask it. Did these women have any agency in this scenario? Any choice? Could they have gotten out if they wanted?

[00:42:48.690] - Jesse

Yeah. I don't think they could have gotten out. I think that it was just the way it was. It was a tragic and ugly part of the life back then. But it seems that most of these girls had gotten pregnant when they were teenagers, and things had not worked out for one reason or the other. And they ended up in this life, the wife of one of the main guys in Tim's outlaw career, Chester shoots her husband was one of these Cedar Choppers wild Cedar choppers I mentioned who had teamed up with another guy and brutally raped a young teenager, locked up her boyfriend in the trunk of the car.

And it was a really high profile case. They became fugitives. And for a week or two, the sheriffs were out combing the Woods, looking for these guys. So it was a nasty crime. And so she had a baby and another child. So when she hooked up a short time later with Chester, one of the longtime members of the Overturn gang and became his husband and a better half in that life, it was in a way to step up.

[00:44:47.650] - Benjamin

It was what was available to her at the time.

[00:44:49.880] - Jesse

Yeah. And who else is going to hook up with one of these guys? Not the prom quaint. There's kind of a joke that Ernie told me. They say God invented pimps so that the prostitute would wake up and see someone who is even lower than she is on the totem pole. It was one of those symbiotic natural forces back then. That's the way society was working.

[00:45:35.670] - Benjamin

Let me ask you about another symbiotic relationship there, because I was really struck in your account of the very unusual kinds of relationships that Tim and his crew formed, often, of course, relationships of utility, but sometimes of affinity as well. And I really want to ask you about the defense attorneys that ended up representing Tim and the gang over the years. He went through a string of them. I'm looking at Webb Flanagan, Jerry Lamont, Veron, nickerbacher, what were these relationships like? How did Tim find these people?

[00:46:16.830] - Jesse

Well, it's possible that they found him now. Jerry Lamont was an interesting character. He had an office in East Austin, and so he had a lot of African American clients. He also was said to have installed cooling fans and some of the neighborhood churches and stuff. Things like that for outreach, for prove that he was a good guy. And Jerry had a weakness. He loved making deals with jewelry and stuff and looted stolen coin collections. And that was part of the culture here. And Flanagan was just an amazing character.

[00:47:16.550] - Benjamin

He's a smuggler. He's also a Bush pilot. He's one of the getaway guys.

[00:47:20.730] - Jesse

Yeah. He served as the Bush pilot for the Marines during the duration of the war, got out and went through law school and was on law Review, was a teacher's favorite and just out of the box brilliant. Thinker they say that he looked like the actor Danny Kaye. He was not a big guy. He was a cut up. He put on the country lawyer thing to the Max. And he just had a lot of criminal clientele. And his partner's office would be stacked up with all kinds of stuff that he got in Barter.

So I had a friend. That a very good friend. That was a country lawyer. And he did a lot of barter get work done on his house. Or he'd take a gun or a wedding ring in Barter sometimes for his clients. And he wasn't one of these guys. He was an honest lawyer. He wasn't like Flanagan, but you can see it's a matter of degree, right? You take a coin collection for pile of gold and barter stolen. And so you're part of the ecosystem. Well, they want to keep their clients free so they can keep getting the stuff and keep getting the money.

So they end up being puppet Masters, as do the Bell. Bondsmen are also part of the ecosystem, and they also employ guys are out in bail and felons and stuff exchange to run errands for them. Maybe something beyond fixing up their house, tracking down other bail jumpers.

[00:49:39.630] - Benjamin

I want to bring some threads together. You write at one point in the book that busting safes and robbing banks and other local businesses, not just banks. They diversified is now quite literally Overton's job, like a tradesman. Right. But unlike plumbing or electrical, you can't keep doing what he's doing without it catching up to you. You have to keep doing it to stay afloat.

And more and more threads are beginning to unravel. By the mid 1019 and 60s, threads of evidence, threads of bodies, threads of relationships that are beginning to fray. There's this job that they pull against a guy named Hiram Reed. It's about a 60K hall, and that doesn't go quite the way that they had thought it would. And then shortly after that, in January 1966, Tim is actually shot by kind of a strange guy in his doorway. Can you describe kind of what's happening right around that time?

And what that year 1965 kind of was signaling or was beginning to offer the Overton gang because there's a little bit of a shift here.

[00:51:23.010] - Jesse

Yeah. 65 was just nuts. And I think drugs may have had something to do with it. The Tim was taking speed and barbiturates at this time. So some of the crazy stuff that happened, I think, may have just been a bad drug day. But one problem was that there was starting to be pressure from local law enforcement. Harvey and Ernie included on the community to do something. And why would they ask for help from the community? Because people like rich guys like Hiram Reed, who is the blue blood.

They're a big time gamblers. So these guys are a big part of the gambling community. And the overturned gang both benefited these guys in various ways. But they also preyed upon them. And so they had this parasitic or symbiotic relationship. The police knew that these guys, like Hiram Reid needed to step up and do something. And so members of the grand jury committee, which is basically a vigilante Lions Club type deal. They got together and said, okay, got to do something. Hiram Reed was part of that.

And some other guys and various guys on that committee ended up getting burglarized and, like, closet full of furs, taken out and wallsafes gutted. And so that turned some of those guys off big time. And so there was that pressure going on. There was drugs, especially Tim's younger brother, Darryl, with a loose Cannon. He was constantly drilling into or burning drugstore safes because drugstore safes were usually easier to crack and had both dope and money and stuff it. So Darryl would get arrested doing a drugstore job one night and then two or three nights later the next week, after he gets bailed out, he'd be back doing it again.

So he had a bad Jones going there. So there was that. And they would owe huge amounts of bail here and there. So they were getting pressure everywhere they went, and they were getting tailed when they would leave town. So they would end up sitting around in town, sending the girls out to work overtime, not just locally, but in various towns on what they call the circuit. A lot of them. These were farm towns where they had a grain mill. And so the farmers would come to town to bring their grain or whatever crops they were bringing into town, and they would want to get themselves serviced while they're in town.

Also, Ernie would go up with the highway patrol and round the girls up and put them in jail. So they're getting pressured that way. Also.

[00:55:27.690] - Benjamin

It'S interesting because at this point, Overton's accomplices, they really start screwing up even more grandly. His brother murders a pimp execution style. The switching over the cars and the license plates and keeping their kind of trail clean is getting more and more complicated. And then in 1966, one of their heists goes terribly wrong.

[00:56:12.160] - Jesse

Yeah, it was like a clock spring breaking. It was the Waterloo.