Swell AI Transcript: Ben and Scott 1.mp3

Ben 00:01-00:02

Scott, welcome to Crime Capsule.

Scott 00:03-00:05

Thanks. Glad to be here.

Ben 00:06-00:15

Man, we are delighted to have you. And before anything else, let me just go ahead and say congratulations on the publication of this new book.

Scott 00:16-00:16

Thank you. I appreciate it.

Ben 00:18-00:25

So as I understand it, this is your second book with Arcadia and the History Press. What was your first?

Scott 00:25-00:55

The first book was called Fort Jessup, A History. And when I sent it in, the first, I sent the first chapter for review, basically said, we love it. Now cut it in half. So, okay, well, because the first chapter was basically no man's land. So I'm like, okay, well, that'll be book number two. So I put all that research aside and I trimmed it down enough to kind of tell why Fort Jessup was founded. And then I knew when I would, if I would get around to a second book that I'd pick up from there and do an expanded version of that.

Ben 00:56-01:07

Well, they have both turned out absolutely beautifully, and I'm excited to dive into the No Man's Land for sure. Before we do that, Scott, tell us just a little bit about yourself, and how did you come to these particular projects?

Scott 01:09-02:27

I have a long, drawn-out story there, so I'll try and keep it brief. Sure. I started, I guess my love of history came probably around I was age three or four. I have an older brother that did a lot of reenacting when I was little and kind of got involved in history through that. And then growing up in Sabine Parish, you always hear stories of the outlaws. And I would go, we used to have big 4th of July events at Hodges Guards, and they would always have local storytellers. And those were the most popular sessions were the ones on no man's land. I was growing up with those stories. In high school, I started volunteering at Fort Jessup as a tour guide and then got hired as a staff member and worked through that through college. I was an archeological lab assistant for Dr. Hay when they did a lab, when they did an archeological field school there. And then I actually have degrees in history and anthropology. And through a weird twisted fate, I wound up being a high school band director. So weird. I have a degree in history, a degree in anthropology. I'm certified in social studies and music. And then I have a master's in music with a focus on, surprise, surprise, music history. And then my graduate project was on the music of Fort Jessup.

Ben 02:29-03:37

Oh, interesting. Yeah, absolutely. The preserved sort of old colonial era tunes and so forth. I am reminded of the great story that Louis Armstrong, another native son of our state and musician, once said where he said, you know, when it comes to music, I don't care what your last name is or who your daddy is or where you went to high school or any of that. All I care about is can you pick up your horn and blow. Good deal. Well, you come from a region of Louisiana that most folks are not very familiar with. Now, when we think of Louisiana in the popular imagination, of course you think New Orleans, you think maybe Cajun country down in the swamps, and if you're feeling real frisky, of course, you might even think somewhere like up in the hill country of, say, I don't know, Monroe, Shreveport, close to that Arkansas border, and up into the Hot Springs and the Ozarks and so forth. But most folks are not as familiar with Central West Louisiana, even though it is one of the most interesting and dramatic landforms of the entire state.

Scott 03:39-04:25

Right, it's, we've been left out of history for a couple of reasons, but this strip is basically everything that borders Texas, drained between the Sabine River, which is not Toledo Bend Lake, and the Red River. And culturally, we developed totally different from the rest of the state because we were never part of French Louisiana. Because originally this was all Spanish territory. And then as we'll talk about, it was a neutral strip of no man's land. And then it became part of American territory. almost 20 years after the rest of the state was acquired. So we've had a very different development. So sometimes we don't feel as connected and other people feel as connected to us to the rest of the state as maybe some of those areas that you mentioned.

Ben 04:27-05:03

And that leads to, of course, an entirely separate culture, which you don't necessarily find, or one that in some ways came late to the Americanizing influences, which is something that you go into in great detail in your book. Now, you mentioned that you had volunteered and then been hired at Fort Jessup. and so forth, which is one of the sort of key sites of this particular area along the Texas-Louisiana border. Can you just give us like a quick thumbnail sketch of Fort Jessup and just kind of why it was important?

Scott 05:04-05:51

Sure. Fort Jessup was founded in 1822 by Lieutenant Colonel and future President Zachary Taylor and the men of the 7th United States Infantry. and it was built for two reasons. One was to guard the international border, which at that time was the Sabine River. Spain, or excuse me, Mexico had recently won its independence from Spain, and no one was quite sure how relations were gonna be between the two countries. Spain had been not always friendly, shall we say, and sometimes overly belligerent, so they weren't sure how the New Mexican nation was gonna react to the United States. And it was also open in large part, determining law and order of this region and act as a police force and a deterrent to all the outlaws who have been running wild for 20 years.

Ben 05:54-06:44

which we'll talk about here in a due course, but it's kind of interesting because I think many of us today do not fully appreciate what the borderland territory was like in those years as the United States began to look westward and acquire territory. Now, I am curious, you say you have two books that came out of your original sort of research mass of material that you generated. What was it like researching this particular area and synthesizing all of the things that you learned about the individuals and the places and the military maneuvers and so forth? Where did you get your sources? And then how did you begin to integrate those into this coherent story that forms the book?

Scott 06:45-08:29

Yeah, it's frustrating is one word. Of course, before Jess, I always said that was actually a little bit easier book to write. because I was depending mainly on military documents, a lot of them were in the National Archives, and we had copies of some of Fort Jessup, some I was able to acquire through different letters, different journals, that I'd be able to get archaeological sources, different things. But with the No Man's Land book, I took that basic research, but then you had to go in and kind of decipher what, because so much of it is oral history, which oral history is very important, but sometimes it's not accurate from storyteller to storyteller compare the historical record and I mentioned several times in the book that I Kind of compare the legends of some of these people and I'm like, okay Well, this person said this this person said this and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

So I kind of tried to I guess eliminate some of the most far-fetched Examples of some of these legends and kind of look for sources that had similar story from multiple sources and of course you also get into a lot of things anytime you have a local history where a historian from the 1920s will quote something and then every other historian after that goes back and quotes the same source. So sometimes trying to find those additional sources was difficult. I was able to go in and do some research in newspapers and again I don't know if you'd call that as much of a primary source as you would with some other books because a lot of these were events that were written about after the fact, maybe 20, 30, 40, 50. You're still in living memory of when they happened, but not at the actual time. Yeah.

Ben 08:29-08:32

You know, it's funny you should mention, go ahead.

Scott 08:33-09:08

And then I tried to put everything, I've spent most of my history career, you might say, either as a tour guide or a teacher. So I tried to make all these facts interesting to people and try and give people an idea What was it actually like to live in this area? I did talk a lot about how they built homes, how they lived, how they're able to survive, and try and bring things into kind of the, I guess, the modern eye for those of us that didn't grow up in the area would understand just how hard it was. And just to keep it from being a set of dates and times and names, I wanted to bring these people to life as much as possible.

Ben 09:09-10:00

Well, it's absolutely something that you achieve in the book. You really get a sense for the kind of personalities of people like James Wilkinson and the pirate Jean Lafitte, who we'll talk about. There's a real sense of kind of what these people's ambitions were, what their character flaws and weaknesses were, of course, how they acted under pressure of say Events in their immediate vicinity, but also receiving orders from quote-unquote on high, you know All that sort of thing comes across very clearly in in the final product Thank you, I appreciate that that was one of the goals I said it was just try and bring these people to life their stories are so fascinating and I'm of a general I'm coming that last generation where we don't have

Scott 10:01-10:10

what we call the native storytellers, most of them have passed on, and my generation is not doing enough to pass this information on to our children, so a lot of these stories are being lost.

Ben 10:12-12:28

Well, and that's one of the reasons that, you know, books like yours are so valuable, is we need to try to collect and preserve as much of what we can as possible in order to pass that down, absolutely. Now let me ask you, just to go ahead and dive into the main material of Louisiana's No Man's Land, Here on Crime Capsule, we have done a recent series on lost cities. Okay, just earlier this year, we got to travel to places like central Alabama and sort of flooded towns in Colorado, and we just had a great time looking at individual settlements that had been wiped off the face of the map. Places down in the Texas coastline, right? Not too far away from where you are, Indianola, Texas, right? Wiped off the map by a couple hurricanes, never rebuilt, it's gone. Toast, all right? Now, I gotta say, Scott, this may be an omission, a confession of omission or error on my part. But I believe this is the first time that we have ever done a Lost region and what I mean by that is a sort of lost swathe of the map Because there aren't a whole lot of those in American history where you just get an entire four to five hundred square mile chunk of land which just seems to completely disappear from people's consciousness and I gotta say this was a first for me to dive into one of those, so I appreciate that. But I'd like to ask you, by way of how we get there, how that comes to be, can you take us to this one moment in November 1803. You describe it in detail in your book. There's a ceremony that takes place in the city of New Orleans, which involves a very curious but consequential procession of flags. Can you take us to that moment in American history, and then we'll dive into the No Man's Land from there?

Scott 12:29-14:28

Sure, because that's where it starts. So most everyone's familiar with the Louisiana Purchase. We all read about in school, probably got two or three pages, probably had a test on it. But there's so much of the drama and details, again, that are left out. So Jefferson, President Jefferson was attempting to buy originally New Orleans because that was the economic base of the capital of Western United States. Even though it wasn't part of the United States, all of our goods from the West were going through there. Spain had threatened to cut it off, and so you couldn't ship them or that would have devastated the economy of the West, especially the farmers. And when we say West in this time period, that's mostly the Ohio Valley. So he sent envoys to buy just New Orleans.

Napoleon at first wasn't interested in selling, then he decided, hey, I need money to start, I'm about to go to war with Britain possibly, I need money. So they said, well, we'll just sell you all of Louisiana. And then when they asked, well, where's the boundary of this, it was very vague and basically everything that used to belong to France and now belongs to Spain and would go back to France would be part of the Louisiana Purchase and the Mississippi River was a definite boundary but on the west there was no continuous river so it was a lot more So they had already started sending, the French government had already sent people ahead to collect, to take over New Orleans, not take over, excuse me, they to accept New Orleans because Spain was giving it back to France. Well, France didn't have possession of it physically when they decided to sell it. So Spain had to turn it over to France, France had to occupy it long enough that they could claim was their territory and then they sold it to the United States. So that's where you get that original Louisiana purchase where you had to fly the Spanish flag so many days and the French flag so many days and then you had the United States coming in and taking possession.

Ben 14:29-15:05

Yeah. So in that moment, and you described that sort of 20 days where three different flags were flying over Jackson Square, and if you go down to – our listeners know I live in New Orleans, so I could drive down to Jackson Square and be there in about 15 minutes and, you know, see the flag of the state of Louisiana and the American flag and so forth. But it would have been a most unusual sight 200 years ago to have seen three successive national flags flying in a period of about three weeks. I mean, that had never happened before almost anywhere in this particular continent that we know of, had it?

Scott 15:06-15:10

Correct. Yeah, it was definitely would have been a strange thing.

Ben 15:11-16:26

Yeah, and a lot of uncertainty, of course, surrounding that. So you write in your book that one of the main tensions that took place even after that moment, even after the United States had formally come into possession, legally come into possession of this whole huge, you know, new territory, which doubled its size, right, as we all know, the uncertainty for the federal government and the uncertainty for the locals down here in lower coast Louisiana actually only increased, right? I mean, it wasn't as though things were magically about to get better as a result of that. In a way, they kind of got worse. And you write that the reason for that, which was faded from historical consciousness now, is that even after that transfer of land from France to America, the American territory, the newly acquired territory, it was still surrounded by Spanish colonial holdings, Spanish imperial holdings, we should say. We were pincered, weren't we?

Scott 16:26-17:47

Correct. You had a very large Spanish army that was stationed in Florida, You had a large Spanish naval contingent in Cuba at Havana Harbor. And then you also had a large, but not quite as large as in Florida, but you had a large army in Texas as well. And all of these are literally bumping up against Louisiana. You had a population, especially in New Orleans, that was French by birth, but they lived under the Spanish flag so long the United States did not know where their loyalties lie. And then you have Spain that was furious about the transfer. In fact, when they had signed the treaty to transfer Louisiana from Spain back to France, there had been a clause that Napoleon would not sell the territory to anyone else. Because Spain was concerned, because Americans have always pushed west. We were always looking for more land. and you already had an influx that had moved into Louisiana illegally, they were afraid they were gonna keep pushing through Texas and eventually into Mexico, which at this time, Spain is almost financially bankrupt, and the only thing that's keeping the country afloat are the Spanish silver mines. So Spain knew if they lost Mexico, then their country was gonna be bankrupt.

Ben 17:49-18:48

And, of course, as the next decades would prove, those tensions absolutely erupted and flared up and so forth. So can you explain to us then, in that moment, 1803, you have the transfer. Spain might be furious with France for what it had kind of done behind its back, so to speak. And we have to, of course, allow for the inconsistency of communication and the length of time it took for treaties and, you know, travel and so forth, months and months to cross, you know, say, the Atlantic to deliver these things to royal court. So we have to account for all that. But what was Spain's attitude towards the fledgling United States at this point? Was it outright hostility? Was it more of an uneasy kind of dance? Or was it sort of, maybe we could be partners on the same continent, but we also just kind of have to keep our wits about us?

Scott 18:49-20:19

It was a sense of fear and anger, because of the position they've been put in. Spain went so far as to actually make war plans of what to do including blockading Washington, D.C. with the Havana fleet. So they were ready to go to war over the boundary. At first, they tried to block the treaty, but they were afraid that if they didn't go through with the transfer, that that would start a war, that they weren't in a position to win at that moment, because they needed to have troops positioned. Then they tried to use the international courts and they didn't get anywhere with that. So then they decided, okay, well, we'll go through with the transfer, but we're gonna keep the Americans as boxed in as possible. So they really were gonna try and keep the occupied territory as close to the Mississippi River as possible and keep as much of Louisiana and the rest of the territory under Spanish control as they could. And that's why, like in Natchitoches, we didn't have our transfer ceremony in Natchitoches until 1804. Because at first the governor, William C.C. Claiborne, was not willing to release the American troops to march up and take possession of the different Spanish forts because he was concerned that Spain might attack New Orleans. Because you literally had a large garrison only probably less than 100 miles from the city of New Orleans at this time.

Ben 20:20-20:50

And we should take, Scott, we're gonna break the fourth wall here for a hot second. And two Louisiana boys right here probably need to explain to anybody out there who is listening who's not from Louisiana, just why the heck there is on a map, when you look at it, two towns, both very similarly named, Natchitoches or Natchitoches, right? And I was wondering if you would do our listeners the honor Because it can confuse the heck out of anybody.

Scott 20:51-22:11

And not only was I a tour guide, but my parents owned a restaurant in Maine for 42 and a half years. And I worked there a lot too. And it was always hilarious when people would come in and they would butcher the name of Natchitoches. And they'd say, well, how far is such and such? First thing I had to know was, OK, are you going to Natchitoches or Natchitoches? Natchitoches is the Louisiana town. Natchitoches is the Texas town. And those were two, originally they were two tribes of Caddo Indians that had, they were related through kinship, but they were slightly different cultures. The Caddo Confederation was a luciferous of related tribes that were all independent of each other, but they all culturally were connected. So basically, Natchitoches was one, and Natchitoches was the other. Now, there's the legend of the great chief that sent his sons to go walk one day's length, but most anthropologists don't believe that that happened.

That's where they were, where they settled. And of course, both of those towns play into no man's land, because Natchitoches was the large first French, then Spanish, then American settlement. And Nacogdoches was a large Spanish settlement that became a very large Anglo settlement during all of this time.

Ben 22:13-23:30

Well, it is important because, you know, the confusion can reign to even the best intention of us. And thank you for just getting that out on the table. Now, before we Take a look at a passage in your book. I just would love for you, as we're talking about the geopolitics of this exact moment in American colonial history, don't worry, there's a whole lot of crime coming, but we have to understand why the stage was set and how the stage was set for all the crime in the no man's land, okay? And you write at length about the conspiracy, which many folks are not aware of, regarding a possible second revolution in this country, which was centered on the Louisiana Purchase as a territorial acquisition. Can you just tell us a little bit about James Wilkerson and what his plot was? Because I have a feeling that for everybody who saw the musical Hamilton and, you know, got a crash course in what was going on in New York and in the Eastern Seaboard, what happened after the events of the musical Hamilton may just surprise them a little bit.

Scott 23:31-26:39

Well, and I would like to point out that James Wilkinson is probably the biggest outlaw that we had in no man's land. Fair. So we had the transfer in 1803. And I said, things did not go peacefully. In fact, Spain was continuing to send small bodies of troops into Louisiana, Natchitoches, Lasodias, which originally had been the Spanish capital of Texas, located in Louisiana. But that's a whole nother podcast to discuss. Sure. to go and occupy these areas. And then the Americans at Fort Claiborne, which was enacted, which was the first American fort built in Louisiana Purchase, they would go out and basically peacefully expel them. Well, they started sending more and more troops, so the United States, under President Jefferson, sent the commanding general, James Wilkinson, into the area to take personal command.

You would think that would make sense, right?

The leader of the American army sent to the place where we could be invaded. There was a couple of catches to this. First, Wilkinson was the civilian governor of what we at the time called the Louisiana Territory, which was everything north of the modern state. Our modern state was called the Orleans Territory. Everything else was the Louisiana Territory. And as my Louisiana history professor always said, try researching and doing your thesis on that and confuse some librarians when you say you want information on the territory of Orleans. But he was the governor, and he very much enjoyed that role, even though he was maintaining his generalship as commander of the American Army. And he saw him losing that governorship to go take a field command as a demotion, because now he was just going to be a general again. He was also going to lose the governor's income, which that played a role in a lot of his decisions. But there's even more to a catch to it. He was not just the American general, but he was actually a Spanish spy. His code name was Agent 13. And he had been in the employment of the Spanish government since the early 1790s. And in fact, it helped him come up with a plot to try and separate Kentucky and other parts of the Ohio Valley from the United States to join to their Louisiana territory. and he continued to feed information to them. It started at a time when he was not in the military because he retired after the American Revolution. But even when he was called back to active service, he continued giving them information and continued receiving payments. So now you have a disgruntled general who's a Spanish spy in what could be the most important international incident in the early United States history. And then we're going to add another layer to it. And this is where our friends of Hamilton come in. Most people know the name Aaron Burr. If you haven't seen Hamilton. Maybe you've seen the milk commercial where they were talking about who shot Alexander Hamilton.

Ben 26:39-26:43

And the guy has the bullet in the glass jar.

Scott 26:43-28:29

Yeah, exactly. So Burr was vice president of Thomas Jefferson. Our founding fathers did a lot of things right. They did make a couple of mistakes, though. And the first one they made was when they wrote the Constitution, whoever came in second for president became the vice president.

So you had the person who was running against the person to become president is now the vice president. And our founding fathers believed that they would put their differences aside and work together for the good of the country. That worked for Washington and Adams, didn't work for anybody else. So Wilkinson and Jefferson never got along as it was a contested election, had to go to the House of Representatives to be voted on. And they voted multiple times. Finally, at the last minute, someone changed their vote.

Jefferson won, Burr felt that he'd been cheated. So for four years there was tension, then after that Burr went to New York to try and run for governor. That was when he had his run with Alexander Hamilton. He killed Hamilton in a duel and then fled basically to the west, the Ohio River Valley, where he discovered that dueling in this part of the country was still very popular and still seen as a legitimate way for gentlemen to solve an argument. So his popularity in the West was very high.

And he came up with this scheme where he was going to separate the Ohio Valley, the Louisiana Purchase, Texas, and join that with Mexico, and he would run this huge empire, and Wilkinson would be his second in command and his military advisor. So now the person who's trying to solve this is now working for three different parties.

Ben 28:32-29:19

Can I ask you real quick, just for one brief moment? This is arguably one of the most provocative, counterfactual scenarios in the early history of our country. The what if, right? What if something like that had happened? You know, we would have had a just a completely different shape to the entire United States. It would have been bordered by the Atlantic on the east and this new nation of some sort to the west and then Spain, right? It's just mind-boggling to think about the implications of that. Do you know, has anybody ever done any kind of like fictional treatment of that or played out the implications as a what if anywhere?

Scott 29:19-29:22

I don't think so. I haven't heard of any.

Ben 29:25-29:46

Well, somebody's Netflix series is waiting to be commissioned, then. What can I say? Yeah, well, anyway, please continue. So we get to the point where Burr and Wilkinson meet up, and Wilkinson is plotting, you know, this potential move. But it doesn't end well for either one, does it?

Scott 29:47-34:19

Yeah, the short version of it is Wilkinson was sent to Natchitoches, and the whole linchpin for this operation to work, there had to be a war with Spain because that was the only way that Burr could raise his army of patriotic Americans to go invade Mexico and it be legal. So he needed the cover of war. He also needed the small American army that averaged about 3,000 soldiers at this time to be distracted enough that they couldn't stop him once people realized what his true intentions were.

So there was a couple of things that happened, and Wilkinson in all of this is running the options in his head. If he betrays Spain, then he loses his source of income, which was very large, and they were sending him barrels full of silver coins. If he was found out by the United States, not only would he lose his generalship, but he could also be hung as a traitor. And then if Aaron Burr wasn't successful, he would lose both of them. So he basically started playing for time to see how it was going to pan out.

And what threw his plan off was, as I said, in 1806, Spain sent a large force into Texas. They crossed the Sabine River and made it about halfway to Natchitoches. Well, when Wilkinson sent a message saying, basically, if you don't return to your side of the Sabine River were going to attack you, they went back to Texas side. So that blew the chance for a war. So Wilkinson now had to figure out what he was gonna do. So he took his army from Fort Claiborne to a place that we call Camp Sabine. It was a small temporary camp on the bank of the Sabine River, about two or three miles away from the close enough that it could monitor the river crossings.

And he hoped that Spain would attack him while he was there. because then that would give them the preemptive strike that they need to justify a war. Well, Spain didn't take the bait. So now he decided, well, there's not gonna be a war, so he had to come up with something. So he sent some of his lieutenants to negotiate a treaty, which would create a neutral strip or a no man's land between the Sabine River and what we call the Rio Hondo River, which is a small, at the time, small creek, now it's basically a ditch, between the area of modern Robilene and Natchitoches, and then that connected the Calcasieu River indirectly. So that, once he had that, then he didn't know what to do there in Burr, so he went back to Fort Claiborne and that, about two or three days after he arrived, one of Burr's messengers arrived with more letters that were incriminating, of course, asking what's the status, and one of the letters said basically it was a letter of introduction to a couple of loyal officers who said that Wilkinson would be second only to Burr.

So now there's proof that Wilkinson is engaged in this, and all of a sudden, Wilkinson has something to do. So he changed the letters, redacted them as our modern term for it, and sent them to Washington, D.C. saying, there might be an issue. I'm rushing to New Orleans to stop an invasion by unknown sources, when he really knew it was Aaron Burr. And then, as he's going to New Orleans, he decides that the best thing for him to do is for him to be the one who arrests Burr. And when he arrested Burr, before they put the state of New Orleans on martial law, he arrested Burr, had him tried, and he was the star witness for the government. Now, neither of these went well. Both, well, Burr was found not guilty of treason due to lack of evidence. Because he hadn't technically committed treason yet, he was just basically thinking about it. Wilkinson, on the other hand, was found guilty in the court of public opinion, but he kept his military rank until the War of 1812.

Basically, the government was more afraid of Wilkinson not being in the Army than they were of him in the Army. Burr, had he been successful, as we said, could have created his own empire. Wilkinson could have started a treacherous revolution. There's so many things that could have happened.

Ben 34:21-35:09

And what we ended up with is a territory that's kind of caught in the middle all of this for about the next 20 years. And that's where all of this incredible lawlessness and tomfoolery began to just flourish. So before we wrap up for this week, would you just read for us, we're gonna talk, we're gonna get deep into it next week. Would you just read for us the last paragraph of, I believe it is chapter two, where you describe the conditions that were left behind when the Wilkinson-Burr escapades reached their conclusion. It's the paragraph that's, yeah, page 27, it's the one that starts, whether because of patriotism, that paragraph.

Ben 35:16

Okay. It's on page 28, I think.

Scott 35:19-36:09

All right. Whether because of patriotism or his own self-interest, James Wilkes had left the United States with a strip of land, roughly 5,000 square miles, over which neither the United States nor Spain could establish law and order. As a result, the neutral ground quickly became a haven for outlaws who would prey on travelers and merchants moving through no man's land. and who would commit crimes in either Texas or the surrounding states and then flee back to the safety of the neutral ground, whether neither U.S. nor Spanish officials could pursue them. Over the next decade and a half, the lawlessness of this region would become infamous, and while there were some legitimate settlers in the region, most of the inhabitants had less than virtuous reasons to be there.

Ben 36:09-36:20

Well, all I can say is we are going to hitch up our saddles and we are going to just gallop straight into that territory and meet some of those folks next week. Scott, thank you so much for joining us and we will see you right back here in a bit.

Scott 36:21-36:22

All right. You're welcome. I appreciate it.