Swell AI Transcript: Ben & Justin 2

Ben: 00:02-00:08
Justin, welcome back to Crime Capsule. Thank you again for taking the time for us to kick our fourth season off.

Justin: 00:08-00:12

Thank you for having me.

Ben: 00:12-01:05

So where we left off last week, we had just met Frank Oldfield, inspector for the postal system, and arguably, please forgive me, all of our family listeners out there, badass super cop. This guy was great. Okay, so I think it probably bears observing that one of the reasons that Oldfield was brought on to the case of the desecration of the Scott Mausoleum was because some of these letters that had been sent from the alleged black hand and so forth, well, how had they gotten to the victims. They'd gotten through the mailboxes, through the postal system, and so immediately, whenever any evidence is transported through those mechanisms, the postal inspector suddenly has prerogative over the case. Is that a fair way to say it?

Justin: 01:05-01:14

Yeah, I would say so. Any kind of crime that utilized the United States Mail at the time was fair game to bring in the United States Postal Inspectors.

Ben: 01:16-02:26

And if these idiots had known who was about to be on their tail, there's a good chance that they would have had the good sense to just hand deliver it instead. You know what I mean? You don't want Oldfield coming after you because, you know, you're going to be up a creek after that. Now, again, part of the larger context of this case is the simmering tensions between the different agencies and institutions in law enforcement that are investigating it, those tensions begin to boil over and you start to see some of the relationships come apart at the seams and you start to see some really explosive developments. Now, we're not going to spoil that because it is a really impressive part of the research of your book to have uncovered all of this and sort of systematically documented it. I'm not going to give away that part of the story, right? What I do want you to do, though, is tell us one of the earliest moves that Oldfield makes involves a typewriter. And it is amazing what he does with this typewriter. So tell us what's going on there.

Justin: 02:26-04:25

Right, so at the time that he's in Erie, and the typewriter incident doesn't really tie into the case, but it really gives a good mind, it gives a really good purview into Oldfield's method of investigation and how he operates. In April of 1911, so a few weeks after the mausoleum had been desecrated, Charles Strong was threatened with a postcard that he received in the mail. Now when you read the postcard, it's not really, it doesn't come off as really threatening, it just comes off as kind of what we would call cheeky and kind of tongue-in-cheek that, you know, on the borderline is slanderous a little bit. But of course, because… It's like a taunt, kind of. Kind of like a taunt, yeah. Like a taunt, but more so, when he boils down to it, criticism. Which, if, you know, that was considered, back then, violent. So… But Oldfield was asked to take a look at it by the assistant postmaster in Erie. And then Oldfield actually revealed a suspect who wrote it, which is a man by the name of A.H. Knoll. He went by the nickname Hutz, H-U-T-Z-E. Now, he was an Erie native and he was a well-known cornetist and musician and belonged to a well-known and respected family here in Erie of gifted musicians. Long story short, Oldfield had tracked down that the postcard purportedly came from Noel himself, so he made himself available at Noel's residence one day and actually asked him to replicate this taunt on a postcard that he had sent to Charles Strong, which he did. And once Noel kind of caught on what was going on, the kind of the jig was up, right? You know, he then, you know, rips the card out.

Ben: 04:28-05:27

Can we just take a look at that exact moment? Because it is so delightful. I mean, you have this, you know, arch by the book, just no-nonsense guy, you know, show up on your doorstep. You know, imagine, put yourself in the place of, you know, in Noel's shoes, right? And you know, this guy shows up on your doorstep, you've sent this thing, and you don't know him from Adam, but you know he means business. And he asks to come into your house and for some reason you let him. And then he asks to see, just very casually, you know, you make a little small talk and he says, oh, do you happen to have a typewriter? You know, know? I mean, if I'm Noel in this moment, how is my blood pressure not starting to rise immediately? And there's this incredible scene where Oldfield asks Noel to sit down at his own desk, put that card into a typewriter and just type a few words. And Justin, tell us what those words were because they are just so sweet. They're so

Justin: 05:28-06:15

Right, so the words that he had asked him, it said, Dear sir, I note by your dirty sheet of this morning, you are crawfishing. Criticizing an act and making a fool of yourself and the morning dispatch are two different things. Now be a man and stand by your assertions made from time to time. The dispatch has been a frost ever since it was started by its bad management. And I don't believe you will improve the condition of the same. I believe in roasting poor shows and giving credit to good ones, but you have not done so, signed a friend of the public." Of course, it mentions both of the Strong's newspapers, The Dispatch, or actually his newspaper, The Dispatch, in it.

Ben: 06:15-06:51

And the beauty of it is that by typing those same words on the same typewriter that was used to send the original note, Oldfield is able to say, well, this key, whether it's the K or the P or whatever it is, this particular typewriter key has this little defect in it, and that particular typewriter key has that little defect in it. And therefore, the defects match up between the first one that was sent and the second one that you're now typing out, and it's like, It is the smoking gun. It just happens to be a smoking typewriter ribbon, which is, you know, calling this guy out for his misdeeds.

Justin: 06:51-07:12

Right. And it really was one, it was really, it's more of a side story in this whole big story itself. And, you know, there's not a lot of information that survives about it, but, you know, the info we can glean from it is really just, it just shows how Oldfield operated and, you know, his investigative techniques at the time, which were still pretty revolutionary for 1911.

Ben: 07:15-09:37

Yeah. And the reason, the reason that I bring it up in this context, not just for the fact that it's my favorite piece of detective work in the whole book, but also because it pertains to how they did proceed once the case began to take a very, very different turn and some former allies became, um, you know, under suspicion and, um, they needed to, the, the, the Oldfield and his team needed to begin to establish you know, what kinds of literal paper trail were being sent in order to expose the inner workings, you know, of this particular criminal activity.

He does begin to chart paper. He does begin to chart ink. He is traveling to different regions, he and his team, in order to see, you know, where are these things being sent from and how does that all eventually connect back to who did this. And it's a fascinating piece of investigation, which is I think one of the reasons I love it is it is completely and purely analog. I mean, we're a half century away from even the beginning of the thought of digital technology.

So this is all just like purely based on the physical stuff of the paper, the ink, the envelopes. I mean, don't mess with the Fed. Don't mess with the post office people, right? Just don't do it. Yeah. So, so we want, I want to leave the storyline kind of at that moment. Oldfield is just such a remarkable character and his arrival does change the shape of the case in these really amazing ways. And things begin to escalate. So, you know, you begin to see some allegiances shifting. You begin to see some revelations emerging about who who is actually involved in investigating and what are their motivations and so forth. And you begin to see some charges be filed, some suits, some counter suits. It all blows up. And for that, folks are going to have to pick up a copy of this extraordinary book. Justin, I want to take a step back and I want to ask you a question that I normally ask first, but I want to ask it now. How did you come to this? How did you find this story, or how did this story find you?

Justin: 09:41-12:12

This story itself is really well known here in the Erie area, first of all. In fact, whenever you have your yearly Halloween-themed cemetery walks and bizarre tales of the unknown, this story has usually been catapulted to the top five, or at least, I'd say, probably the top two. So for me, it was always intriguing hearing this story, you know, the vandals were referred to as ghouls, which is kind of a really kind of creepy-esque. It kind of takes you back to the Burke and Hare situation in England, you know, of grave robbing and, you know, and it really kind of fills your mind with all these different questions. And well, for me, Those questions were only amplified when I heard the story, because as far as I was concerned, from wanting to always know more about something, I wanted to know who did it, why they did it, what was their story like, what was the story of all these people like, and nobody really expanded on it. You know, it was always usually neatly worded in like a three, five hundred word synopsis that really ends with the trial that occurs. Not a lot of people know what happened after. So it really kind of grew from a desire to know more. And the more that I dug and, you know, going through archival footage, court records, the larger this story grew. Because originally, I wanted to tell it as a chapter in my first book with History Press, which was Murder, Mayhem in Erie, Pennsylvania. Because of the word count restrictions, which I know you can probably sympathize with, there was not enough room for it, so we didn't include it. But by that point, I had done so much research, I felt that this warranted its own separate book. And then after I had done Eerie's Backyard Strangler, and then followed up with Wicked Eerie, my then acquisition editor, Jay Banks, who is fantastic, and I were talking about it, we suggested it, talked about the idea of doing this, and that's kind of how this idea was formed. And this was one of those cases that At least for me, the research actually still continues, even though I'm done writing the book.

Ben: 12:15-12:43

…and 90,000 words later and several hundred footnotes and a few more gray hairs, you know, after that point. And here we are. How long would you say, I understand that your interest in the case dates back many, many years, but the point at which you actively really turned your full attention to this, how long would you say you were researching and writing?

Justin: 12:43-13:21

I would say about 10 years. that that's gradually gathering stuff from here and they're building it as they go uh… finding all the records associated with the case are difficult because the case is a hundred and thirteen years old uh… you know we sit here we think about these old cases and and i know sometimes authors and historians have these these dreams of finding court transcripts and photographs and stuff like that none of that really existed the need to locate all these documents, you know, took such a long time to locate everything.

Ben: 13:21-13:37

Yeah. And sometimes, you know, from that era, your only and best source is the newspaper coverage of the trial, which occasionally will reproduce things verbatim, which is helpful. But, you know, there's also, you know, a grain of salt that you have to apply to that.

Justin: 13:37-13:41

Right. It's kind of a hit or miss with some of these newspaper articles, unfortunately.

Ben: 13:44-14:20

Let me ask you this, I mean you say early on in the book that the case is very well known, yes, but this is by far the fullest treatment of it and it is the most comprehensive treatment of of this incident. I'm curious, you mentioned that you did so much new research. What would you say, if you were to take that step back and kind of look at the landscape of what's already been out there, what would you say is your most significant original contribution to our understanding of what happened with the Scott Mausoleum?

Justin: 14:20-16:11

It would be finding the actual court transcript in appeal record, federal appeal records through certain courts, which is over a thousand pages. Finding photographs of the original letters which have never been produced before, you know, usually in some of these retellings they would type it up and transcribe it incorrectly, and seeing the letters visually gives you a whole new perspective of what they were dealing with. So I would say finding the letters, getting the court records, the court transcript, and there was a whole lot of newspaper accounts. You had a lot of main Newspaper reporters that more importantly came from the Pittsburgh and Cleveland area that reported extensively on the trial so the difficult thing with that especially the part of the book with the trial which you kind of have some liberties with is you're getting up between over a dozen different newspaper correspondents take on dialogue. So it's not always going to be the same. So really, you know, getting all that, finding all the correct stuff, finding newspaper articles that were never discovered before, or at least brought into the fold about the story about what really happened. And then also it was going back getting criminal records for those who were who had been convicted learning about their stories and their past and you know really just adds a whole new different angle on this case that for the first time in 113 years is you know finally being revealed So I just have to say to everybody out there in podcast land if if ever you needed a

Ben: 16:11-18:02

Any reason to pick up a copy of Justin's book. I think he just gave you about 12. Justin, I think you may have just offered the most succinct, you know, analysis of why no one ever needs to read anything else about this case ever again. So all those haters can take a seat. So let me ask you, let me ask you another question. One of the, I think one of the most interesting chapters in your book is, again, we're not going to spoil the outcome, you know, and so forth, but one of the most interesting cases in your book was, those chapters, was the last one, the epilogue, in which You devote more time than most authors I have really ever encountered to detailing what happened to every single person who showed up in the course of your narrative. You know, the kind of, did they live happily ever after? did they rot behind bars and die of tuberculosis, you know, were they committed to an insane asylum, or did they retire to Florida and play putt-putt golf, you know, till the end of their days, right? That sort of thing. And it is very moving, actually. You really get to know these people so well, not just Oldfield, but, you know, so many of the family members and everybody else so well over the course of the book. What was it like for you writing that because it is a it's a fairly intimate portrait of an Extended network of people who were all brought together by this one act Yeah for me, I would say the thing that stands paramount is when I wrote this story.

Justin: 18:02-19:18

I told myself you cannot tell it without telling the lives and intimacy and details of the Strong family, and I believe that wholeheartedly. And I think that shows in the epilogue because of their impact it had on them and their family afterwards, Oldfield and all these other individuals, and it really is something that when I was moving when I was writing it after I had a chance to finish it and Step back and look at everything. I was quite pleased with how it turned out because it really was a bookend to this story And all those involved and it really kind of wraps up what happened What we can explain happened and to those involved, you know, there are no happy endings with life and And, you know, I think it was more so as a tribute that to everybody who was involved, everybody's human. We all have our misgivings and misunderstandings with life. But it really, you know, I really wanted to hit home that, you know, as with any case, there's more people whose lives are affected than just the victim. And that was really, even though this isn't a murder case, it's still applied here.

Ben: 19:20-19:45

Yeah, well, and that leads me to ask very directly, what would you say is the larger impact on Erie history, Western Pennsylvania history, you know, I mean, what is the legacy of this particular case beyond, you know, a scary story that you tell on Halloween, right?

Justin: 19:45-20:46

So, I would say beyond that, it really It really was the beginning of the downfall for the legacy of the Scott family to an extent. that their prowess and power in local history here on the Great Lakes kind of started to wane because of the events of this story. And really, you know, I think it's one of those cases that has really endured, especially in the lives and memories of historians in this area, because of who was involved. You know, the fact that it gripped the whole country. I mean, this wasn't just a local tale. You know, it appeals so much more beyond that. And it's really a battle of good and evil. And what really makes you wonder is even though we've kind of wrapped up the story with a conclusion, there are still many, many questions that remain unanswered, which will likely never be known to.

Ben: 20:50-21:07

Yeah, and I think that's one of the most provocative aspects in your entire account, is that there are things we can know, and then there are things that we absolutely can't and probably never will. And we all, readers and residents alike, have to make peace with that.

Justin: 21:07-21:43

Yeah, absolutely. And it's really kind of a portrait of what we as historians have to deal with when we deal with these older stories is I remember For example kind of going back to one of my previous books somebody was like well, there was no closure It's like well, you got to kind of take a step back and look at the source material you're dealing with You know and the thing is is if you go into a story hoping for rainbows and sunshine You're probably not going to get it if you're trying to tell the exact fact of what happened

Ben: 21:45-22:46

Yeah, absolutely. And our listeners well know that we here at Crime Capsule, we do not believe in closure, we believe in aftermaths. And those are very different things. Very, very different things, indeed. So, you know, one of the lessons that I did learn, however, is that sometimes, you know, the ghouls are not in the ground, in the cemeteries. They are walking among us even as we speak. And Justin, I just want to thank you for bringing this story to light and for all the work that you did on it. It really is very impressive. Thank you for joining us to kick off spooky season in season four. Thank you for having me. In such admirable style. Yeah, no, absolutely. Now tell us, how can our listeners get a hold of you, get a hold of your book, you know, if they want to reach out and you know, learn about your other books, which you've published. This is number four, so you know we're, you've got a little comet trail going there behind you.

Justin: 22:46-23:21

Yeah, so you can find, I run a Facebook page which details a lot of the work that I do called Shadows from the Boulevard. If you type it into Facebook, it's pretty easy to spot. I'm easily accessible through Facebook. If you go on Amazon, all my books are on Amazon. If you're local to the Erie area or the Great Lakes region, you can follow up with your local bookstore and see if it's available there. I know some more are gradually starting to carry it, but generally in the Erie area and then online as well.

Ben: 23:21-23:29

That's great. That's fantastic. Well, thank you again. This has been such a pleasure. And when book number five comes out, we'll have you back on.

Justin: 23:29-23:33

That'll probably be next summer, so.

Ben: 23:33-24:25

Sounds good. We'll see you then. Thank you so much. Thank you. Alright, so Bill will click that magic button and he will get us all fixed up. Let's see, he may be… on the phone. Hold on a second. Yeah, seriously, I mean, I've read, I have read a couple of other books with, uh, with epilogues, you know, in the past and they're very satisfying, but yours was by far the most detailed. Thank you.